Security Redux

[pirakaplant]

Everything you need to read is in the doc itself.

[ThatOneMoon]

Maybe instead of the outright removal of the Stun baton and Disablers, they get tweaked to also deal damage instead?

I can absolutely imgaine a active stun baton getting like 8-10 units of shock damage and 4-6 shock damage for disablers,
especialy now that disablers no longer have the ability to stun and now only slow down people.
not enough to where you would use them as actual primary weapons but enough that most crew members would realise compliance might be better than an ass beating from sec.

Also helps play a bit into lasersec and giving them a small extra bit of aditional damage profilies to deal

[pirakaplant]

@ThatOneMoon I'm sorry for the late reply, I only just saw your message as I was going to re-request a review.

Truncheons are already something we have in the game as "batons that also deal damage", so it makes more sense to use them rather than tweak an existing item to behave like something we already have. Also I just kinda vibe with them better.

As for disablers, there was discussion of something like this (particularly with tasers as an alternative), but we reached the conclusion that having no less-lethal ranged option would make security more interesting. To quote taydeo on that PR (citing this very design doc, even):

i for one would rather favor just letting security officers kill people

[ThatOneMoon]

Truncheons are already something we have in the game as "batons that also deal damage", so it makes more sense to use them rather than tweak an existing item to behave like something we already have. Also I just kinda vibe with them better.

At the same time we also have pretty much the same thing with stun batons that have been turned off (deal 12 blunt, still capable of stunning I think?)

And maybe it's a case of personal preference but I vibe more with the idea of shock-based weaponry for sec, kind of invokes the feeling of the Combine from Half-Life (Pick up that can), brutal but not too brutal as that is going to leave a mess that later needs to be cleaned up

Alternatively the Truncheon and Stun button can just swap places with the electric beat-stick being the research upgrade to the regular beat-stick

As for disablers, there was discussion of something like this (particularly with tasers as an alternative), but we reached the conclusion that having no less-lethal ranged option would make security more interesting. To quote taydeo on that PR (citing this very design doc, even):

Assuming we went with the idea of giving disablers shock damage I would consider calling them "Less lethal" to only be borderline correct, i would consider shock-disablers to be proper weapon, just with its own niche to fill, especially now with disablers only dooing slow down, that means a typical arrest would likely involve many disabler shots to a target before the secoff closes in with a Stun button/Truncheon, in either case that's going to leave the arrested target pretty heavily beaten up.

[pirakaplant]

And maybe it's a case of personal preference but I vibe more with the idea of shock-based weaponry for sec, kind of invokes the feeling of the Combine from Half-Life (Pick up that can), brutal but not too brutal as that is going to leave a mess that later needs to be cleaned up

I think they should make a mess, actually. I don't want to pull any punches with Funky's themes.

Assuming we went with the idea of giving disablers shock damage I would consider calling them "Less lethal" to only be borderline correct, i would consider shock-disablers to be proper weapon, just with its own niche to fill, especially now with disablers only dooing slow down, that means a typical arrest would likely involve many disabler shots to a target before the secoff closes in with a Stun button/Truncheon, in either case that's going to leave the arrested target pretty heavily beaten up.

I think that if you run from Security, you should not just expect to be injured, you should expect to die. Again, I don't want to pull punches, and it makes arrests a lot more tense than just getting an extra three minutes for running away.

[ThatOneMoon]

I think that if you run from Security, you should not just expect to be injured, you should expect to die. Again, I don't want to pull punches, and it makes arrests a lot more tense than just getting an extra three minutes for running away.

I feel like that is overstepping it a bit, from evil into cartoonishly evil, Nanotrasen is still a corporation that most of all cares about its bottom line, they might not care about their employees as people, but as tools to used and profited from, killing their contractors would just not make sense from them unless their is literally no other option for them.

I think it would make more sense if Security (and by extension Command and CC VIPs) were given soft legal immunity from facing any consequences if they kill someone, but still making it clear that it should not be their default option, that I believe still would play well with the ideas of class differences between Crew and Sec/Command

NT does not have unlimited power (as much as they want to pretend otherwise), they still have to maintain a public facing image as a safe workplace (why Corporate Secrets and the Comand training manual exist), and NT letting their security forces arbitrarily murder people goes directly against that point.

[resetium]

...Killing their contractors would just not make sense from them unless their is literally no other option for them.

I will note that NT can very easily revive people from being shot and killed (worst case, pop em in a bodybag and bring em to Central Command). Also, given police forces love to use 'resisting arrest' to escalate, and I'd expect corporate law enforcement to be more brutal, not less, I'd say shooting someone for resisting arrest is realistic with modern cops, to say nothing about far future corporate cops.

That said, I do think Security should prioritize not killing, but if a death happens, they really should not care. The janitor(s) will deal with it, or failing that, the rest of the department will.

[ferynn]

I think this idea is good. Though I'd recommend not doing half truncheon damage, as that's only 10 blunt. That's less than a harmbaton currently.

[ferynn]

I feel like that is overstepping it a bit, from evil into cartoonishly evil, Nanotrasen is still a corporation that most of all cares about its bottom line, they might not care about their employees as people, but as tools to used and profited from, killing their contractors would just not make sense from them unless their is literally no other option for them.

NT does not have unlimited power (as much as they want to pretend otherwise), they still have to maintain a public facing image as a safe workplace (why Corporate Secrets and the Comand training manual exist), and NT letting their security forces arbitrarily murder people goes directly against that point.

You aren't really a contractor. NT is a colonial entity. Statelike. You're more like a corporate citizen.

They do have unlimited power in the station, in terms of immunity to consequnces. Space Law is made by Nanotrasen.

You have rights only as long as they decide it's helpful for you to have them.

[vex-ryn]

I think security, as they are now, relies too much on disablers to chase down fleeing suspects. I believe that changing, or even fully removing, disablers from the equation will lead to more strategic gameplay and roleplay experiences. For example, security would actually have to think about how to incapacitate the target, or even have officers along the escape route to ambush them. This, naturally, begets counterplay, which furthers the overall "fugitive" experience for everyone involved.

Honestly, solid PR. No notes.

[ThatOneMoon]

I think security, as they are now, relies too much on disablers to chase down fleeing suspects. I believe that changing, or even fully removing, disablers from the equation will lead to more strategic gameplay and roleplay experiences. For example, security would actually have to think about how to incapacitate the target, or even have officers along the escape route to ambush them. This, naturally, begets counterplay, which furthers the overall "fugitive" experience for everyone involved.

Honestly, solid PR. No notes.

The main thing I am overall not sure about is just the outright removal of those tools instead of tweaking/modifying them, why I initially proposed that disablers ans stun batons become essentially proper weapons that deal shock damage, still fulfills what the design document wants to do, as you could absolutely use those tools to kill someone if you really wanted/needed too, while making sure sec gets more tools to work with, not less.

Would also mean that disablers can still exist for non-security roles as a self-defense/deterrence weapon.